Podcast 
Pedagogy is also facing a change as digitalisation becomes increasingly important in our lives. What kind of opportunities can digitalisation offer for learning and education? How will the role of the teacher change? These are some of the questions discussed with online learning experts Hanna Teräs from Tampere University of Applied Sciences and Teemu Leinonen from Aalto University. The host of the podcast is Programme Director Hanna Nordlund.
The language of the podcast is Finnish.
Listen to the episode here:
Transcription of the episode
[Music]
Hanna Nordlund:
Welcome to the podcast of Digivisio 2030 programme, where we talk about what kind of future of learning we are currently building in Finland. I am Hanna Nordlund, and there are different specialist guests sharing the microphone with me. This is where Oppimisen Seuraava Luku [the next chapter of learning] begins.
[Music]
Hanna Nordlund:
This is where the third episode of Oppimisen Seuraava Luku podcast begins. Today, our topic is future pedagogics, and we talk about, for example, digital pedagogy, future learning environments, a teacher’s role and how it’s changing. Today here in the studio with me to dive into the future are Hanna Teräs, the principal lecturer of Tampere University of Applied Sciences and Doctor of Philosophy and Teemu Leinonen, a professor at Aalto University and Doctor of Arts. Welcome.
Hanna Teräs:
Thank you.
Teemu Leinonen:
Thank you.
Hanna Nordlund:
During the last years, universities have had a huge leap in technology. Hanna, how do you as a university teacher feel that we have learned from the perspective of pedagogy?
Hanna Teräs:
That is a very good question. Sometimes I wonder whether we had a digital leap or if we are on a digital trampoline, where we are bouncing a lot, but then how to move forward. But I think one of the most significant lessons that last years’ corona pandemic and how it forced all of us to move into digital environments in almost one night had was that moving online in itself is not digital pedagogy. It showed that there are places where it works very well, but then on the other hand, it also revealed shortcomings and deficiencies. We saw a lot of emergency solutions. I think that what we have learned from this is that we have to actually plan for this. Putting PDFs in an online learning environment is not digital pedagogy. I would hope that we have learned that from this.
Hanna Nordlund:
Teemu, you are a professor of new media design in the Department of Art and Media, in the School of Arts, Design and Architecture at Aalto University. Digital learning environments are specifically your field. If at the beginning here, you could mention one of the most exciting innovation related to learning environments at the moment, what would that be?
Teemu Leinonen:
Thank you. Innovation is an interesting concept because it needs to have already been implemented. Innovations are only the ones that live on. If we think about learning environments from that perspective, and this also has to do with the corona times, one kind of innovation is video conferences becoming an everyday thing. Especially Zoom that was and came and enabled that. Because I come from design, I think technology shouldn’t bother people. It should be so easy to use and functional that you don’t waste time trying to get it to work. It would bother being together and doing and teaching and learning as little as possible. Then definitely video conference has been successful in the way that it works seamlessly on laptop or desktop. In practice on laptop, and it has the front-facing camera which is also a (-) thing to arrive.
Hanna Teräs:
That is actually very good that technology shouldn’t be a bother to what you’re doing. It’s the same in learning and all kinds of technology-assisted learning and teaching situations. It shouldn’t bother your work.
Teemu Leinonen:
Yes. Another thing that is not an innovation yet but could soon be is that we are now doing research about 360 videos and streaming them. So it’s a digital twin, where we can go to a space and it’s live. It’s sort of a 360 video conference. I believe that in some point it will be an innovation. So it’s actually the next phase of video conferences, where the students will come to the Aalto University lab via a 360 video and they have the freedom to move and do some things.
Hanna Nordlund:
Okay. Maybe that is a way to move on to the next phase and not get stuck on bouncing on a digital trampoline with our current video conferences. We have a very interesting topic, and there are many things that I am excited to talk to you about. We have talked a lot about working life and learning currently going through a big change. What do you think, what kind of things are currently challenging the development of pedagogy?
Hanna Teräs:
That immediately brings me to the theme of continuous learning. You also talked about the change in working life and the pressures of change that come with it. That has led us to speak a lot about continuous learning at universities. A while ago, OKM published a strategy on continuous learning, and it is clearly something that challenges us and evokes the question whether it has an effect on pedagogy and what is the pedagogy of continuous learning. What should it be like. This is something we have also thought about a lot. I would see two things that are especially challenging. I’m sure there are more, but I can think of two right away. The idea of continuous learning is very useful and good. Making sure that there is the right kind of know-how at the right time in the right place and that we have competition and so on, but there is a danger that that kind of thinking will lead to a perception of know-how that is very fragmented. Then people think that you can just order a piece of know-how somewhere, like you would order food from Wolt. It reduces what learning and know-how actually are and it challenges the pedagogical planning about what that is. The other thing is very practical. This will expand the target group of learners we get even more. What kind of background they have. What their goals are. What kind of study skills they have. There might be many kinds of people who study the same thing for completely different purposes. This challenges pedagogical planning a lot in the sense that it serves these different target groups simultaneously. Then if we add in hybrid learning and things like these, it is not easy for the teacher. [utters a laugh]
Hanna Nordlund:
Yes. In Digivisio, we have chosen to start with the target group of continuous learning, and first we are going to provide a service where the continuous learners can easily find the continuous learning selection of universities. We have also come to the conclusion that they are quite a different target group that the universities have to manage in perhaps a new way. Teemu, what do you think about the development of pedagogy, and why is pedagogy overall such an important thing?
Teemu Leinonen:
I could continue a bit. Of course, since I mainly work with the degree programme education, I want to say on the formal side, there are two main tasks. One has to do with pedagogy, so teaching or developing how to learn to learn, which enables the continuous education. So having good skills to learn so that you can learn in continuous education or together with working life. We should invest in how to make people good learners. It is a pedagogical challenge on the degree programme side. Then the other thing is something that relates to the fact that we can learn a lot and we learn without any education, which can be a dangerous field as well. So informal learning is a huge part of our life and in the development of our attitudes and perceptions and beliefs. I like to talk about upbringing, even though it feels odd to say that about people in higher educational institutes or universities, but how to bring up people to be critical when seeking information. Even if they wouldn’t seek the continuous education that we offer, but if they study by themselves, they would have that kind of ability to seek information and to assess its reliability and to pick up know-how for themselves. That is incredibly important because that channel is open all the time and there is all kinds of crap there. There is a lot of good things as well. People can independently develop themselves as far as they want, because the world-wide library is in your pocket all the time, but using it requires quite a lot of skills.
Hanna Nordlund:
At this point, I would like to ask Hanna, that you said earlier that just doing things like we did before and then converting certain things into PDFs is not a digital leap yet and that’s not a high enough level. We currently talk about digital pedagogy and on the other hand pedagogy side by side and concurrently. Are they the same thing?
Hanna Teräs:
I think it’s good that we talk about them concurrently because good pedagogy is good pedagogy, whatever the learning environment is like. On the other hand it’s good that we talk about digital pedagogy separately because it guides us to think that it is different. It needs to be planned differently than face to face teaching. There are pros and cons that we talk about them concurrently. There is a term or a concept that is related to digital pedagogy that we have started using more in the recent years. What is it in Finnish. Learning design. A good online-based teaching or teaching planning often requires more pre-planning and making a pedagogical manuscript.
Teemu Leinonen:
Yes. I agree. The concepts come and go. We don’t have to speak in terms of educational scientists here, but I think pedagogy is a much broader philosophical approach to teaching. Then we have the concept of didactics which is a bit dead now, but I think it would be better to talk about digital didactics…
Hanna Teräs:
It would.
Teemu Leinonen:
…and the planning would be a part of that. Now we have a new environment where we have to plan things differently. In my own career, I have been very against didactics because I think that [laughter] how it is taught is completely meaningless, because the most important thing is how people learn. It’s a small battle that has been going on. But I have started to appreciate when someone thinks of good didactic skills.
Hanna Teräs:
Yes. Now comes the counterattack of the educational scientists. They learn better when they have good didactic skills. [laughs]
Teemu Leinonen.
Yes. Skills. But didactics also have to do with the ways of teaching of different branches of science. History is taught in a different way than biology. It depends on the branch of science. But I think that it depends on the device. Digital didactics would be a good…
Hanna Teräs:
I like that.
Teemu Leinonen:
…thing to teach.
Hanna Teräs:
Like you said, pedagogy is much more than just a toolbox.
Teemu Leinonen:
Yes, and tricks as well of how you should use digital tools, or how you demonstrate something in biology or history or do something yourself and so on.
Hanna Teräs:
We are now launching the concept of digital didactics.
Hanna Nordlund:
Yes. Right in the beginning a new concept was founded. If I think about this discussion from the point of view of the listeners, I think that pedagogues and people familiar with the topic understand what you are talking about, but then for a continuous learner who hears a concept like digital didactics, it might be hard to understand. It is also important that we find the concepts and ways of talking about things that the continuous learners can understand what we mean.
Hanna Teräs:
Yes. But the continuous learners don’t have to understand pedagogy or didactics. This is for the teachers and planners of teaching who offer this kind of education. They have to understand it.
Hanna Nordlund:
Yes. Teemu, you actually already talked about how we all learn all the time. It doesn’t always have to be that formal, but we learn all the time. I think that is an incredibly good idea that actually when we become good learners, we can learn independently in a much better way. But if we talk about learning environments, learning is becoming more and more intertwined with our work and our lives and it’s not a separate or detached activity. What does this mean from the perspective of learning environments? What kind of learning environments will we have in the future?
Teemu Leinonen:
I mentioned the 360 video conference. That has to do with an authentic environment. Then students can study in their field’s work environment as well. So it doesn’t happen in the premises provided by the university anymore but in the authentic environment. I believe that these will exist. In addition to enriching it and making it more interesting, it enables all kinds of virtual visits to different places, forest excursions and stuff like that, and then the other way around. The premises of the university also have some value. It is an academic environment, and there is a certain set of norms and procedures. You can come and virtually visit the lecture hall or the university lab where they do research from your workplace. It goes both ways. Students can go to the authentic work environment or the surrounding society or then they can go to the digital twin of the university from the surrounding society.
Hanna Teräs:
And it’s notable that especially for many who study at the university, the university is an authentic environment. A lot of them will also work in that kind of an environment.
Teemu Leinonen:
That is true. Yes. But it would be good for them to also know what…
Hanna Teräs:
Maybe.
Teemu Leinonen:
…happens in the so-called real world. [laughter]
Hanna Teräs:
Well, that is, yes.
Hanna Nordlund:
Whatever the real world means to each of us. Yes.
Hanna Teräs:
This is a discussion that has been had a lot also between universities and universities of applied sciences.
Teemu Leinonen:
You especially have, I’m sure.
Hanna Teräs:
At the universities of applied sciences, we have been utilising authentic learning environments and working life training and authentic projects and the forest excursions that you mentioned [laughs] through the ages. But then on the other hand, what does this look like in a world that is becoming digitalised. What kind of hybrid models will be created. That is an interesting question as well.
Teemu Leinonen:
We always talk about it and universities are often required to teach working life skills. I am a bit critical about that because I think that when you leave the university, you should have the ability to go to the workplace and say that actually, a lot of the things you are doing here are stupid. They should have the latest knowledge and understanding of the field, so that they could challenge the company. They shouldn’t respond to the needs that exist right now but renew the company.
Hanna Teräs:
That is really good. I also think like that when it comes to the digital skills of teachers, for example. This will sound like I’m going on a tangent, but it has the same idea. Why is it always so that there is something out there that we should react to. Shouldn’t it be that where does the future and future actors grow if not universities. Why can’t we take a proactive attitude and think about what we want this to be like. One of the tasks of higher education should be to renew the society.
Teemu Leinonen:
Exactly. It’s funny. Last spring I was on a research leave, and I was in Colombia, Bogota for a few months. They had a French system there with a notary who accepts official papers. We had those related to the travelling of our children. In the office, [utters a laugh] there are eight young people sitting there who have most likely graduated from law school and who have gloves on because they are putting stamps on the papers. I was watching the process. They take the paper, and give it to one person who writes it on a computer. Then it is taken into a locked space. Someone picks it up from there and takes it upstairs where the notary is with the big rubber stamp. They stamp it, and then the paper comes back and a couple of other juniors put their stamp on it. I almost wanted to cry because I was also there at the university and I realised that these people have graduated from a university that is very modern, nice and works like ours. But then nobody had the courage to walk upstairs and say to Mr. Notary that in a week, [laughter] I could do this same process with five percent of what you are now doing and that would be cleverer for both our customers and our employees. But they didn’t have the courage to do that. It’s a nice to work inside, so somehow they submit to it. But they have worked with the same tools and digitally in that university. Of course there are the power structures, but it’s the same thing. The universities don’t teach you to work in the workplace as a rubber stamp. They are learning law. But they also don’t have the educational attitude that people could go and say that hey, we are going to do this completely differently now.
Hanna Nordlund:
This has been a very interesting discussion. You have talked a lot about that the students in our higher education institutes should be able to renew things and have the skills to learn. On one hand, in Digivisio we have talked a lot about how teachers now have so many new technological possibilities and new ways of working that they should be able to manage, and then on the other hand, we have more and more heterogeneous learners who have different skills. We also need to solve this equation. What kind of skills do these kind of new learning environments that Teemu also talked about require from teachers and the learners?
Hanna Teräs:
If we go back to the pedagogical thinking. I have worked with digital learning environments for almost 25 years, and for all these years, it has been marked by the notion that when these come, we will have training and then the trainings are for the teachers about how to use such and such things. That’s fine, but we need to get past that and we have. The skills of a teacher to use digital tools doesn’t mean that when you click here, this happens, but how you use it in a pedagogically sensible way. That is the level we need to get to in the staff trainings as well. [laughs] Not that somebody shows you that you click here and then you bring this hear and here you can open a breakout room like this. We need to get past that and give more weight and thinking to the digital didactic direction. [laughs]
Hanna Nordlund:
And is it about the same thing as you talked about, Teemu, when you talked about your experiences abroad, so that in higher education institutes we should also have the courage to say that hey, this is a stupid way to do things and that we cannot do this like this anymore? Is it that we need to also raise our level of ambition and say that we don’t want to do it like that, but to think about it from a pedagogical point of view in a completely new way?
Teemu Leinonen:
I’m sure that’s true. I think that pedagogical thinking has also different powers or visions and perceptions about how well something scales up. People want efficiency in a way where the quality decreases if it is scaled. These are still open and difficult questions. Let’s now use the product name Zoom because it is so superior in video conference teaching. I had to learn how to teach through Zoom during corona. I had one mass course. I have been working with learning environments a lot, and I had a terrible challenge of competing with Netflix and Instagram about the attention of the bachelor students who were 19–22 years old. Then I came up with didactic ways. One, which was really good, was small series of questions that I could throw straight at them. People got sick of the breakout rooms. The students would leave as soon as you put them in a breakout room. But I activated them by making a questionnaire that I went through in my lecture and told that this is what you answered. It’s a simple way to activate them. Then another way that I decided on, and of course it’s fitting because they are students of art and design, was that they have to take their notes with a pen and paper and then take a picture and submit it there. No, upload. I’m saying everything in English now.
Hanna Teräs:
Submit. Upload.
Teemu Leinonen:
Submit. Upload. [laughter] To submit to the online learning environment. So I got those from every lecture. Of course I didn’t go through them, but that they existed. And I advised them and told the research data that the best way to study and take notes is with a pen and a paper. The students thanked me for that. It made them focus. They listened. They were present because they had something to do and then the competition with other more interesting things on their screen got easier.
Hanna Teräs:
Yes. And I can relate to that because who actually has the energy to listen to a personnel day on Zoom.
Teemu Leinonen:
Yes. I think that sometimes the best motivator is the compulsion to do something. You cannot complete a course without taking handwritten notes from every lecture, or even drawing them. That was the requirement.
Hanna Nordlund:
You partly moved on to the topic that I wanted to talk about next. Whether we were on a digital trampoline or had a digital leap, during the corona there was quite a big change in the way we worked. For example, Tampere University has published a study about the wellbeing of higher education students during the first wave of corona. The study stated that seeking for social support from fellow students and teachers decreased and the significance of social media increased. For example, SAMOK’s study states that the student’s wellbeing and also motivation decreased during the remote teaching. In this digital world, how can we take care of communality and interaction and also make sure that everybody stays on board?
Hanna Teräs:
Yes. That is definitely what happened. Now that we are back on campus and I have taught third year students, I realised that these people haven’t been here before. It felt very dramatic. They had only been on Zoom. I think one other thing that we have learned from this is that this is very suited for some people. This morning, I read feedback from a teacher student who said that it was great that the studies could be done online because otherwise they couldn’t have done it. Then there are other people who it is not suited for at all. I think especially for people who are doing their first degree and they don’t yet have the skills to learn to learn and they are still growing as people in quite an important developmental stage like we often are at the start of our higher education studies. We have to accept that everything can’t be digital. Even though we could have interaction between people in digital environments and we could do it even better than currently, it will never fully replace being in the same space together. We have to protect that and not just put everything online in this digital and Zoom enthusiasm.
Teemu Leinonen:
I agree. We could even try to build a hypothesis that we are bodily and without being together bodily, we don’t learn to solve conflicts. We also don’t learn to love each other.
Hanna Teräs:
Exactly.
Teemu Leinonen:
We are holistic bodily beings that have an autonomic nervous system and we feel things. Especially in the developmental stage where university students are at. Brains develop until you are 27–28 years old, they mould enormously and only after that the control and other things develop. I am definitely for physical presence. It’s the same thing that we have to be quite careful with what the students may feel that would be good for them, because they might not know what that is. [laughs]
Hanna Teräs:
Exactly.
Teemu Leinonen:
It’s not student-centric if we let them do things in the way they want to.
Hanna Teräs:
Right. We ask them what you would like to do. It’s the same thing when you ask students what they would like to do, and a lot of them would like a lecture course and multiple choice questions. Because that is…
Teemu Leinonen:
So should we just do that.
Hanna Teräs:
That is not very challenging.
Hanna Nordlund:
So that is also about upbringing, isn’t it?
Teemu Leinonen:
That is precisely the upbringing aspect of it.
Hanna Teräs:
Yes. And that takes into account or should take into account that studying and education and growing as a person is also a lot about becoming social and socially capable people. There is a lot more than cramming study material.
Teemu Leinonen:
Yes. Then there is also the side of continuous learning and informal learning, where if you have a problem, you can call your friend. You call your fellow student and ask them how they would do it. This is our national asset as well, competitors calling each other about how to solve things.
Hanna Nordlund:
Let’s then go to matters of ecosystems and platforms. Digivisio is also about building a sustainable learning ecosystem for the future in cooperation with higher education institutes. Like you said, Teemu, we can call a friend and we can do things together. The other side of the platform ecosystems today is that our students have access to a huge amount of different content that also varies in quality, and I’m sure it’s very different content that people get with their own skills of learning to learn. How do you think higher education institutes will do in this kind of ecosystem world, and why should people specifically come to higher education institutes to learn?
Hanna Teräs:
I think we already touched upon it in the previous discussion. It is about much more than just absorbing specific study contents. I mean it’s a wonderful thing and very good and useful that we have this kind of ecosystem, platform, what do you call it. A portal. What is it in Finnish? [laughs] It has a word.
Teemu Leinonen:
Platform.
Hanna Teräs:
Platform. Yes. That you have a platform where you can find the things you are looking for easily in the same place. But then you need to know what you are looking for. Often the situation is that we don’t know what we don’t know. If I had the chance to build my studies back in the day, I would have left some things out because they were too much work or I didn’t understand why they were important, or they were otherwise not compelling, and this is the problem.
Teemu Leinonen:
That is a very good point. And whether your degree is three plus two years or whatever it is, someone has already curated the contents for you.
Hanna Teräs:
Exactly.
Teemu Leinonen:
And they have some kind of a logical order of how to build the pieces based on previous things. Then it becomes a great Aristotelian poem or a story of the whole. I could use cooking as a metaphor. A cook can build a meal, but if you then take all of the ingredients and eat them as they are, it’s not the same thing. There is someone who builds that whole for you. Then the other, more educational question, is that they could get the enthusiasm for their own field that guides them to continuous learning and that they would love their own field, follow it and look at the newest things. Continuously develop in their own field. They would be an active seeker of information and participate in discussions and different professional organisations and so on. They would be so interested in their own thing that they have the energy to keep doing it.
Hanna Nordlund:
So are you saying that higher education institutes are the cooks of learning?
Teemu Leinonen:
You could say that. Yes. Or designers. Learning design is a good one. That’s what curriculum planning is, thinking of what the whole is. There are didactic choices and then conventions related to the branch of science or field and then challenging them.
Hanna Teräs:
We could take this analogy to the next level and think about if we are McDonald’s cooks or Michelin cooks. Are we looking for a huge scalability or a standard or something that…
Teemu Leinonen:
Changes the food culture.
Hanna Teräs:
Yes. [laughter]
Hanna Nordlund:
That’s an excellent metaphor. Yes. In Finland, we want to have the best pedagogy in the world, and in Digivisio, we have thought together with a big group of pedagogues from higher education institutes about where the best pedagogy in the world comes from. If we want to be that place, what do you think we should concentrate on right now in higher education institutes?
Hanna Teräs:
This doesn’t have anything to do with digital things or even directly pedagogy, but I think we need to concentrate on creating spaces for dialogue and creating space, time and places for meeting people, having discussions, problematizing phenomena and also exchanging thoughts about digitalisation and other things and for genuine participation. I think that good pedagogy, whether it is digital or not, comes from this. Otherwise it’s like we are pouring it into a well. The culture needs to enable it. That’s why I am approaching this in this way, around the corner. I feel like we are so busy and have external pressure and all kinds of new expectations and new digital tools and this and that, that we have gone into a reactive state. I think in order to get back into a proactive state where we have a possibility to renew society and have an educational task of growing as people, this is what it requires. It requires dialogue and space for thinking.
Hanna Nordlund:
What about Teemu?
Teemu Leinonen:
We agree [laughs] almost about everything. It’s baffling. I remember I once co-wrote this article. I think it was for Committee for the Future. It had some scenarios in it. It was maybe ten years ago. One of them was a Finland of study clubs, where everyone would organise study clubs which is a classical dialogical form of teaching. I think I succeeded in doing something like that in my own teaching during corona. It was the same mass course I talked about with 70 students. I divided them into groups of four, and they had to make a video essay. I instructed them how to do it and I obliged them to do it. There were tasks such as they had to make a team agreement where they agreed on who does what and how to solve conflicts. They were signed. But then there were tasks such as they had to meet face to face which I thought was a great idea because we couldn’t meet with the whole group but it was okay for four students to meet. So they met face to face and had a task where they had to take a picture together wherever they met. Then they had to make a memo of every meeting, and that memo had three sections. What they had done, what they have to do next and if they had some problems. Then it was sent to me. So within that course, I tried to build small dialogical study clubs and of course think about the wellbeing of students that they wouldn’t just get stuck in their own study space on Zoom. It sort of scaled up. Although there were 70 students, they did the work in groups of four. Then they made the video essays and we looked at them together and other students asked questions. But how could we coordinate these kind of study clubs where we look at things in a more long-term way. It is quite hard because we are so damn busy…
Hanna Teräs:
Indeed.
Teemu Leinonen:
…allegedly. Or we are, but maybe we should just be brave enough to decide about our own time better.
Hanna Teräs:
Leave some things undone. Did I say that out loud? [laughter]
Teemu Leinonen:
Do the most important things first and then the others.
Hanna Nordlund:
But thank you for deciding to use your time and be my guests here. This has been an amazing discussion. We have talked about trampolines and digital pockets and digital didactics and much more. What I remember the most from you is that although we talk about digital pedagogy and we talk about learning, we cannot simplify it too much. We have to remember that what is also connected to learning is learning to learn, specific social skills, learning about life, behaving in communities and then the digital stuff. It is good that we talk about digital pedagogy because then we remember that it also includes the things that Hanna brought up. There is also the planning and pedagogical manuscript and learning design. We have to remember that we are not just transferring things from the physical world, but we think about them, and Teemu, you had amazing examples throughout the discussion about how you had applied that with your own students. We have to remember that we are not only digital people but also bodily people who have to feel things in their own body and to learn to know other people. It’s like you said, higher education institutes can take the role of being the Michelin cooks of learning that takes educational responsibility and that takes responsibility, not only about the skills and doesn’t split the learning in too small pieces, but dares to say from an educational perspective that these things have to connect to each other and we need to learn these things if we want to acquire certain skills. Although we are student-centric, it doesn’t mean that we give students all the power, but we also bring our own know-how of what is the best for the learner. It is also student-centric that we think about what is best for the learner. And we have to remember that if we want to have the world’s best digital pedagogy, it’s also about the spaces of social interaction and a possibility to also stop and think about things. These are very good perspectives, amazing examples and also wonderful new concepts. Thank you so much for joining as a guest and sharing your great ideas with our listeners.
Teemu Leinonen:
Thank you for the invite.
Hanna Teräs:
Thank you.
Hanna Nordlund:
We can continue the discussion about the topic on social media with the hashtag Digivisio2030. I am Hanna Nordlund, and this was Oppimisen Seuraava Luku.